Post by Wolpertinger on Jul 12, 2020 18:10:15 GMT
I’ve been thinking about this for longer, but with the new book To Have and to Hold out right now, it seems like a good occasion to examine Gisburne’s relationship to women. He is often said to be clumsy and lusty when it comes to the ladies, but I want to examine this more closely and open it for discussion!
First-off, let’s start out with Lady Gisburne, his mother. To put her story of Guy’s childhood into perspective, we know he was page to the Earl of Gloucester, and page boys leave home at age 7 to work for their assigned lord, so this took place before Guy turned 7. She laments that her son looked at her with cold eyes once he found out the truth of his parentage and the reason for his father’s beatings. Baron of Gisburne was using Guy to pressure his wife to reveal who her lover was, but for some reason she thought the man who had moved on and remarried and had a career ahead of him regardless was more important than her baby boy’s safety.
Richard Carpenter’s novel highlights how Guy feels about her, more so than we can see on screen. As soon as he runs into her again he becomes panicked, and although he prevents her from being slain by accident by one of his men, he wants nothing to do with his mother. He runs away from her with the thought of how wicked she is for hating her son. Meanwhile, she thinks about how much she loves him, but she never voices it out loud. This was her last chance to set the record straight.
Gisburne probably didn’t come into closer contact with many women throughout adolescence, so his mother will have shaped his image of women. Someone who wouldn’t stand by his side when it mattered, who preferred someone else over him, who’d comfort him while lying to his face. A lot of trust issues, self-esteem issues, and a terrible role model for relationships created by his home life.
Now let’s take a look at his relationship with the leading lady, Marion. When these characters are first introduced, they seem to already be acquainted with one another. Marion is, at this point, a very respectable, gorgeous young heiress. Unmarried but desired by an older man, it would not have been entirely impossible for another noble to pitch his bid and gain the Sheriff and Abbot Hugo’s preference. Especially as Hugo’s vassal, Guy might have held the advantage, as Hugo would have benefited from Guy’s increase in lands. Considering that in this point in time Marion does not yet despise Guy, she presents (in this point in time!) the least complicated match for him in the entire show.
In summary:
Marion: Good Match, Not Interested.
The only other (yet) unmarried noblewoman Guy encounters is Mildred de Bracy, the Sheriff’s 16-year-old unfortunate bride. Here we see for the first time an ounce of humanity in Gisburne, as he seems to react sympathetically to her speech of being forced into servitude to the Sheriff through marriage, and lowers his head when she mentions someone out there loves her for who she is. This can be seen as Guy having developed romantic feelings for her, but I find it just as legitimate that here in this moment he feels a sense of comradery for her suffering, seeing himself reflected in her words up until the point she mentions love. Here they differ, because he has never had someone out there love him before, and likely never will.
Just as with Marion, in the Richard Carpenter novel Guy and Mildred have a conversation on their horseback journey. Again he talks about tourneys, this time about bleeding her injured father and how his brother had his eye gouged out at a tournament. (Presumably Carpenter had not yet decided on Gisburne’s family history at this point, or he means “brother-in-arms”, or Baron of Gisburne had been married once before, and this is another half-brother.) Mildred is grossed out more than anything. Guy never makes a pass at her, which is sensible considering she is to wed his superior, even if de Rainault wants nothing to do with her. He does look a little upset during the wedding, but again the reason is open to interpretation.
In summary:
Mildred: Good but Difficult Match, Mildly Interested
What about extra-marital shenanigans with servant and serf women?
In the episode Alan a’ Dale, Meg of Wickham bursts in on their dinner and the Sheriff snipes at Guy something along the lines of “Another one of your mistakes, hm?” This can have two interpretations. Either: Guy has deflowered or impregnated a village woman before, or: the Sheriff is referencing Jennet of Elsdon, and “mistake” simply means making a mess of things with a peasant woman. Gisburne doesn’t react very strongly to the nasty snipe, he just looks mildly confused or concerned. It’s also possible that he simply didn’t understand what the Sheriff was implying, and was trying to remember any possible mistakes he could have made in Wickham recently.
In summary:
Serf Shenanigans: Easily Accessible but Not Interested
First up, Jennet of Elsdon. This is the first time we see Guy interested in a woman, although technically, we do not actually get to see it. His advances happen offscreen and are alluded to, but it never becomes clear what exactly happened. He does seem to be going through a lot of effort to punish her for the rejection however, which brings up the question if he planned the whole revenge, or if this is something that snowballed, escalating the situation to the point of holding a witch trial. Considering his chaotic, self-destructive nature, the second seems the more likely one to me. (Aside from this simply being a reference to an actual witch trial in the village of Gisburn involving a Thomas and Jennet.)
Aside from being ‘pretty’, she is:
• a serf
• married
• 16(!) years older than Guy (and 3 years older than the Sheriff)
In summary:
Sarah is:
• Jewish
• engaged
• not of nobility
• extremely unwilling
In summary:
Sarah de Talmont: Near Impossible to Have, Very Desired!
Taking into consideration his very low sense of self-worth (What is your life worth, Gisburne? Nothing!) and his loveless life that has consisted for the most part of abusive or at the very least unpleasant, vapid relationships, it makes sense to me that he destroys his own chances at love and marriage. Emotional intimacy probably terrifies him. Physical intimacy might interest him, but the way he insists on marriage (at least with Sarah) makes it seem like he seeks out security or some form of guideline when it comes to sex. When you’re scared of physical intimacy, the idea of “first we’ll get married, then everything will magically fall into place” probably sounds appealing and reasonable.
*** mild spoilers for the new book ahead ***
To Have and To Hold does a wonderful job with this, portraying Gisburne’s turbulent, confused state in regard to women, love and marriage, conflicting desires, and perhaps even a core of innocence to his heinous deeds, while he takes baby steps toward discovering his humanity and the humanity of others. I love that Elliot Thorpe gave him a firm, more confident stance on his ideas of his future now that he is older, and that his stance goes against expectations of society. This gives the impression that Gisburne has put some thought into what he wants in life and is not afraid to flout convention, even if the Sheriff shakes it all up and forces him to act against his will.
Richard Carpenter’s novel highlights how Guy feels about her, more so than we can see on screen. As soon as he runs into her again he becomes panicked, and although he prevents her from being slain by accident by one of his men, he wants nothing to do with his mother. He runs away from her with the thought of how wicked she is for hating her son. Meanwhile, she thinks about how much she loves him, but she never voices it out loud. This was her last chance to set the record straight.
Gisburne probably didn’t come into closer contact with many women throughout adolescence, so his mother will have shaped his image of women. Someone who wouldn’t stand by his side when it mattered, who preferred someone else over him, who’d comfort him while lying to his face. A lot of trust issues, self-esteem issues, and a terrible role model for relationships created by his home life.
Interestingly, however, neither of them seem particularly interested in the other, and in the Richard Carpenter novel, we only glimpse one conversation between Guy and Marion before she turns outlaw, on that fateful horseback ride to Much’s home village. In this conversation Guy “drones on” about the battles and tournaments he has been on, and his horses, and Marion tunes out while giving him an occasional “Mhm”. This could be interpreted as Guy trying to impress her with stories of his skills, but it’s not written in a way that makes it seem like Marion is worried Guy is coming on to her, and I think she is astute enough to notice a clumsy attempt like that. More likely, Gisburne just has nothing else to talk about and possibly assumes everyone likes these topics, because he has rarely been around people who do not.
Once she chooses the outlaw life Guy only looks at her with scorn, and at times it almost seems like he hates Marion more than he hates Robin Hood himself. I don't see any glimpse of romantic potential between the two from either perspective from this point onwards.
In summary:
Marion: Good Match, Not Interested.
Just as with Marion, in the Richard Carpenter novel Guy and Mildred have a conversation on their horseback journey. Again he talks about tourneys, this time about bleeding her injured father and how his brother had his eye gouged out at a tournament. (Presumably Carpenter had not yet decided on Gisburne’s family history at this point, or he means “brother-in-arms”, or Baron of Gisburne had been married once before, and this is another half-brother.) Mildred is grossed out more than anything. Guy never makes a pass at her, which is sensible considering she is to wed his superior, even if de Rainault wants nothing to do with her. He does look a little upset during the wedding, but again the reason is open to interpretation.
In summary:
Mildred: Good but Difficult Match, Mildly Interested
In the episode Alan a’ Dale, Meg of Wickham bursts in on their dinner and the Sheriff snipes at Guy something along the lines of “Another one of your mistakes, hm?” This can have two interpretations. Either: Guy has deflowered or impregnated a village woman before, or: the Sheriff is referencing Jennet of Elsdon, and “mistake” simply means making a mess of things with a peasant woman. Gisburne doesn’t react very strongly to the nasty snipe, he just looks mildly confused or concerned. It’s also possible that he simply didn’t understand what the Sheriff was implying, and was trying to remember any possible mistakes he could have made in Wickham recently.
We also know that Nottingham Castle employs several young and pretty servant girls, something that de Leon notices immediately when he rounds up young women for Prince John to enjoy their company. The fact that they’re lowborn shouldn’t matter, as none of Guy’s love interests were of noble birth. However, not once do we see Gisburne eyeing any of them up. This would have been very easy to include. Guy would just have to turn his head a little to watch a maid during a conversation. Instead, when de Leon explains what entertainment Prince John enjoys, Guy looks confused, then troubled, as if he never even considered that royal men have mistresses.
In summary:
Serf Shenanigans: Easily Accessible but Not Interested
Let’s look at his actual (one-sided) love interests on the show.
First up, Jennet of Elsdon. This is the first time we see Guy interested in a woman, although technically, we do not actually get to see it. His advances happen offscreen and are alluded to, but it never becomes clear what exactly happened. He does seem to be going through a lot of effort to punish her for the rejection however, which brings up the question if he planned the whole revenge, or if this is something that snowballed, escalating the situation to the point of holding a witch trial. Considering his chaotic, self-destructive nature, the second seems the more likely one to me. (Aside from this simply being a reference to an actual witch trial in the village of Gisburn involving a Thomas and Jennet.)
Examining Jennet, she is an interesting choice for a love interest.
• a serf
• married
• 16(!) years older than Guy (and 3 years older than the Sheriff)
His first crush on the show is a woman old enough to be his mother (in 12th century terms), and already married. For a roll in the hay, these issues aren’t much of a problem for a nobleman in regard to a serf woman, but is a quick fling what Guy wants?
In summary:
Jennet of Elsdon: Near Impossible to Have, Desired!
His second crush is Sarah de Talmont. She is much closer to Guy in age, but there are other issues here standing in the way of blossoming romance.
• Jewish
• engaged
• not of nobility
• extremely unwilling
It seems that Guy is intent on marrying her while overlooking her disgust for him, completely disregarding her engagement and religion, and does not seem to mind that she is not an heiress with lands and titles. Again, for a roll in the hay these issues don’t matter much from the perspective of a lusty Christian knight. He’d get away with it. But Gisburne insists on marriage.
In summary:
Sarah de Talmont: Near Impossible to Have, Very Desired!
Conclusion?
Both women Guy explicitly wants are near impossible for him to marry or win over. He ignores all the options of easy lays or profitable marriages. Is this a coincidence, or does he subconsciously choose to only pine for women he has no chance of success with, sabotaging himself?
Taking into consideration his very low sense of self-worth (What is your life worth, Gisburne? Nothing!) and his loveless life that has consisted for the most part of abusive or at the very least unpleasant, vapid relationships, it makes sense to me that he destroys his own chances at love and marriage. Emotional intimacy probably terrifies him. Physical intimacy might interest him, but the way he insists on marriage (at least with Sarah) makes it seem like he seeks out security or some form of guideline when it comes to sex. When you’re scared of physical intimacy, the idea of “first we’ll get married, then everything will magically fall into place” probably sounds appealing and reasonable.
*** mild spoilers for the new book ahead ***
To Have and To Hold does a wonderful job with this, portraying Gisburne’s turbulent, confused state in regard to women, love and marriage, conflicting desires, and perhaps even a core of innocence to his heinous deeds, while he takes baby steps toward discovering his humanity and the humanity of others. I love that Elliot Thorpe gave him a firm, more confident stance on his ideas of his future now that he is older, and that his stance goes against expectations of society. This gives the impression that Gisburne has put some thought into what he wants in life and is not afraid to flout convention, even if the Sheriff shakes it all up and forces him to act against his will.
*** end of potential spoilers ***
Anyway, while I wrote an essay here, I welcome any other opinions to any part of these points!
(See also now, Gisburne and the Sheriff!)
But I did rewatch the Witch of Elsdon just to be sure!
!!!! I think that's worth another thread on its own but anyway... I was watching the scene when he meets De Nivelles and I remembered it as the (land!)pirate being quite paternal, hugging him and even giving him a kiss... But! A kiss on the cheek is paternal, then he actually pulls him closer again and kisses him in the neck and Guy's so bashful and sort of pulls away! And the other guys are chuckling and one says "His friend, yeah!", which I assumed referred to the fact that De Nivelles obviously doesn't have him in very high regard, but was it meant to allude to something else? Did he ever have a master who didn't want a piece of him?? Does he even realize what's going on? He probably does, given how he pulls away and didn't look too happy either when Philip Mark caresses his hand.